Garrett Sussman: Inside SEO Week, y’all are in for a treat, I am, I am so excited because John Doherty is here. The dude has been in the industry talking both sides, like clients, agencies, everything is going on with AI right now. He is the founder of JFD Coaching; he is a business coach that agency owners trust to help them scale. Like he’s had those conversations. Like, so many of you who are coming to this event are thinking big picture about revenue. It’s not just about arts and crafts, it’s strategy. And, and he does it, he builds it. John, what’s going on? Thanks for coming, man. 

John Doherty: I’m totally stealing that arts and crafts. I love that instead of tactics, let’s call it arts and crafts. I’m good, man. Thanks for having me. I am so, so stoked to be able to get onto the SEO Week stage. It was kind of a, kind of been a goal of mine. And so, yeah, I’m, I’m excited to get up there, man. I think it’s an exciting time in search and SEO and, you know, in-house marketing teams and marketing agencies. So yeah, it’s going to be, it’s going to be a real party, man. 

Garrett: It’s wild because like right now, and this kind of not to even go into what you’re going to be talking about, but we’re all having this kind of like existential crisis of the impact of AI on our jobs of marketing in the context of like AI search, what’s top of mind for you right now? 

John: Yeah, there’s a couple. One is kind of how we leverage AI to do work that previously, you know, humans were doing, but also to get super meta on you, how we leverage AI to do the work to get brands into AI. So that’s really interesting to me, actually. So like, we’ve got humans, but then also like a lot of the work that humans were previously doing that we were just throwing bodies at it now can be automated. So it’s, it’s very like fun time to be like a more technical marketer. And then the other thing that I’m, that I’m thinking about as well as, or at least the AI search is, man, we’ve talked about brands and why building a brand is so important, like for so long. I mean, I’ve been in the industry for 16 years. Like I met Michael King the week he and I both moved to New York City, like the weekend he and I both moved to New York City in June of 2011, like that’s when Mike and I met and um, we’ve been talking about brands and building brands and like working with brands and yes it’s made it easier in a lot of ways with like more backlinks and like that sort of stuff right just like less kind of grinded out work more just, like, you know, good marketing, you know, real company uh shit, as Wil Reynolds has talked about for so long, right?

But now having a brand, having a strong brand, having strong citations, having strong mentions all around the internet is truly the thing that moves the needle when it comes to AI search. And so like, I’m not a tactician. I’ve never been a tactician. I’ve never wanted to talk about the arts and crafts, right? I’ve wanted to talk about how do we build brands and I’m very good at building brands. And so like that really excites me as well. That like that stuff that we’ve been talking about and thinking about for a decade and a half is now really the thing that moves the needle. So that’s super exciting to me.

Garrett: I feel like, yeah, the brand conversation has been such a pertinent theme of like the direction of SEO. What do you think like the next like 12 months, what do you think the SEO industry is going to look like? Like what’s changing? Where are we going? 

John: Yeah. I mean, you know, like it has every year, it’s just getting more and more complex. Like that’s always been the case, but now it’s, it’s, it’s truly no longer, we’re just focusing on Google. I mean, Google obviously with AI Mode and like all that stuff, like it is obviously still focused, but like, you know, especially 10 years ago, it was like, you know, we just be thinking about Google and talking about Google, people like, well, what about Bing? It’s like, ah, Bing, just like whatever. And now it’s like, truly, we need to be thinking about LLMs and like, you know, the discovery paths and that sort of stuff. So, you know, I’ve seen the discovery paths change, like for my own coaching, half of my clients come discover me on LLMs before they even come to me and that conversion path is, is very clear, which is exciting for me, but also it’s completely different from how it was in the past. So that’s, that’s exciting to me. 

And so I think really what we’re gonna have to grapple with is a lot of the tactics that we’ve used over the years in SEO, they still work kind of, but we also have to grapple with the fact that like top of funnel search, which is like what a lot of SEO agencies have done really outside of, you know, the technical and the, and the digital PR, right, link building, all that. But like, especially the content part, the way we measure that, the way that we build those strategies, the way those strategies are built, all of that is having to change because of the way the LLMs process information and rank stuff and mention stuff and all of that. So I think there’s a reckoning that’s going to be happening in terms of the actual services and how we message that and how we measure the results. But at the same time, what is the team that is required to actually get that done? 

Garrett: And it resonates with me because, and I feel like everyone is kind of dealing with that issue, which leads into this existential problem. I mean, congratulations, you just sold EditorNinja, you know, your most recent baby, and now you’re on a new venture getting back into working with these agencies. What are like the problems or the questions that you’re most focused on in your work these days? 

John: Yeah. So, I mean, the big one as I’m, you know, working with agencies and I was grappling with this as I was running EditorNinja as well. And like, candidly, I just, I realized I’ve been running done-for-you agencies for 10 years and was like, this is not, this is not where I want to be. Like, I don’t want a team of, you know, 20 people and, you know, kind of doing like done-for-you, you know, based work. So, you know, moved into coaching. And so what I’m really focused on now is like, how do marketing agencies stay relevant in, you know, in this new world of AI and you know, just kind of how brands are thinking about this stuff. So some of it is like, what are the actual services that they’re providing? Actually a lot of it is what are some of the services that they’re providing because that human, you know, throw a bunch of bodies at it, cheap overseas labor for, you know, top, like top budget work, um, with, you know, humans in the middle reviewing it as well. So that the quality, you know, is, um, the price makes sense. But, um, really thinking about like, like, I think a lot of these like done-for-you agencies that have been operating in that model, they’re all struggling is what I see. And we’re having, I think a lot of digital marketers are going to have to become more true like consultants and advisory partners rather than just, we do your marketing, we update your Google business profiles, like whatever, like you can build AI agents to do all that stuff for you, you know? So like that, so, so we’re, we’re having to punch up a lot more higher in the levels of like, you know, how stuff works. It’s like the doing, the tactics, the strategy, the thinking, right? And I forget who said it, but some thought leadership guru in the past said, the highest leverage is thinking about thinking. And so if we can think about the things that we’re recommending to our clients a lot more, if we spend more of our time there, that’s where the real value is, right? And then everything flows down from there. So many SEOs start from the tactics up. And then their clients are like, we’re not getting the results. It’s like, yeah, because you flipped it, right? Like you can’t start from the bottom of the triangle and go up. You got to start at the top and let it trickle down. And so I’m seeing people happen to make that shift. Which to me is super exciting because it’s kind of where we always should have been. And now we’re kind of being forced to do it with the advent of all these new technologies and just kind of how the world has changed. 

Garrett: I love that getting meta, like the idea of thinking about thinking, how are you like keeping yourself sharp? How are you like, cause you’re in AI, how do you not get sucked into it? And at the same time, like kind of, kind of coaching these, these agency founders to sharpen the way that they’re thinking about strategy?

John: Yeah. I mean, one of the big things that I do myself and that I also like get my coaching clients to do is, you know, every single call that I do, I record it. And then I basically, um, you know, I have like running threads or whatever they call them chats and ChatGPT, basically conversations. I think they call them basically to like, when each one happens, I have one like for each client and then I’ll go down through and I’ll basically like, I have prompts that like, get it to summarize. Like what were the, what were the main points? What were the takeaways? What were the actions that like need to happen before next week? Like that sort of thing. But then I also have it pulling out big themes. So like one of the things I was telling you before we started recording, one of the things I’ve really been doing is like, you know, I’ve done in the last three weeks, I’ve done 10 or 12, like deep dives with agency owners into their numbers. Because most agency owners don’t even know their numbers. If you’re under about $30, $35K a month, which is kind of my sweet spot, to then double from there. Most of them have no idea about their numbers. They don’t know how many leads they’ve gotten, how many new sales they made, how much those are worth, like how much they were paying to acquire a client. Like they don’t know any of that stuff. And we have to know that stuff in order to get there, but I’ve done all these calls and basically on each one, we pull out their opportunities. So then they’re clear on what it is that we’re going to, and I’m clear on what it is we’re going to work on together. Right. But also I’ve taken those, like those, uh, those lists, put them into AI. And basically like that’s helped me form up my own thinking around like, what are the 10 things, the 12 things that we need to make sure that we cover that I need to cover with every agency owner? Right. So, so that’s just one example. 

And then like for my clients themselves, as they’re talking with clients, recording those calls, etc., what are the common things that are coming up? What are the common questions, right? Like it feeds their marketing. It also feeds like how they’re thinking about their services and the packages they’re putting together and that sort of stuff. So I think, like, we can use these tools in very interesting – to like, help us improve like the services that we’re providing. And that’s agencies like in-house as well. There’s like, there’s a lot of like applications for it, you know, in-house as well. Even as it comes to like managing internal stakeholders and getting budgets and like that sort of stuff. Right. It’s like, almost like, like I record sales calls and then it’s like, what worked this one closed, what worked this one didn’t, or like these three closed, these three didn’t, what did I do differently and how can I improve? Right. If you can use that as well. If you can use that internally for things around like pitching for budget or hiring people or whatever, it’s like these three hires worked out well, these three did not. What was the difference there? There’s just a lot of interesting…it’s more like those insights, I think is what’s really interesting for marketers when using AI these days, rather than getting AI to go and do things for you. Though getting AI to go and do things for you is also super fascinating. 

Garrett: It’s so interesting in that you and I, we’re aligned and we see the value of AI and I think a lot of the people in our space, it’s very polarizing. You’re either pretty much all in or against it. How are you, what’s been your experience talking to agency owners or just people in the community, like people who are for it or against it? Do you find yourself having to advocate for it or are you just like, okay, if that’s how you feel, we’re not going to go there? 

John: No, I don’t have to find myself having to advocate for it at all. What I have to find myself doing is, or what I find myself doing is getting people to ask why that matters. Because people are like, especially like more technical marketers are so smart, so, so smart. And they get into the weeds real quick. It’s like this model and that model and Claude 2 point this and Claude this and that and all these other things. And I’m like, okay, that’s great. And I’m glad that you’re interested in it. And are for your clients, right? And like you’re saying this stuff, like your clients have no frigging idea. Your prospects have no frigging idea. Like what it means. You’re just bashing them over the head, showing them that you’re smart, but you’re not actually making it relevant to them and showing them why it even matters, right? And sometimes we don’t even need to talk about AI with them. They’re just trying to accomplish a certain goal. So like I often have to pull people out of the thinking about like AI agent, this, and this model that, and more to like, but how does this help? How does this help us help our clients achieve their goals better? 

Garrett: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there’s this balance of like, you have to be aware of the zeitgeist, right? Like you have to be aware of this moment in time, culturally, socially, business at a level, but then also bring it back to, you know, what it – what is the purpose? And I feel like everyone’s been doing a lot of soul searching recently; and if you’re not, you should. Kind of leads into, like, give us a teaser of what what people are going to get from from your talk. What might they hear about from you at SEO Week that they should be just like hyped about? 

John: Yeah. So, I mean, what I’m really thinking about is what is the role of a marketing team? And what is the role of a marketing agency, which is basically an elsewhere’s marketing team? What is the role of like a marketing org, let’s call it in a world of AI? Like, where do we sit? What are the things we need to be focusing on? What are the things that have been like that we’ve been doing, throwing bodies at the problem, for example, that are no longer relevant? And what are the things that we haven’t been doing, strategy, thinking about our thinking, what are those things that we’ve been doing less of because we’ve been so busy doing that we need to basically re-upskill or upskill, re-skill into thinking a lot more strategically and taking a much bigger picture, right? Because even if you’re an internal an enterprise company, you’ve probably worked across a number of them. So you started to see like the things that are the same, right? And so like doing a lot more thinking about that and saying like, this is my playbook for how we grow this sort of company, right. How we grow organic visibility at this sort of company, whether it’s Google or Bing or ChatGPT or Perplexity or whatever, does it matter? What is the, what is the, what is the framework that, that helps us succeed. 

And then, you know, same thing on like the, you know, on the agency side, like the value of the services that we provide, you know, like going and writing a blog article is no longer very hard. Writing a good one is harder, obviously, but the real value that we, that agencies bring is in the strategy. It’s in the perspective, it’s in the thinking. Right. And I’ve seen this for 15 years when I was at Distilled, like a lot of our like success was because of our thinking and like seeing across all these different industries, sizes of websites, you know, companies, and really like helping people bring a lot more signal to a very noisy industry. So I think like, that’s what agencies are going to have to do a lot more of. And it’s going to be a lot more consultative, it’s going to be a lot more strategy, it’s going to be a lot more change management rather than like, we do things for you and the numbers go up. 

Garrett: I get that a lot. And I think you mentioned earlier, but just like the nature of all this stuff is becoming more complex. And there is a lot more of, you know, making informed decisions with the data that you have, which I think is scary for people because you can get it wrong because there’s so much like we don’t know what we don’t know with such a massively changing culture. I got to ask you though, like you’re going to be in New York, you’re going to be SEO Week – like, what are you excited about for the event?

John: I mean, I’m just excited to be around the smartest people in the industry. Like last year, I mean, I showed up for one day. I was like, I showed up for like Thursday, the Future of SEO, which I think is the day that I’m on this year. And I literally decided on like Saturday night that I was going to come, you know, and I pinged Mike. I’m like, hey man, do you have a ticket for me? He’s like, yeah, you know, let’s do it. So I just booked my ticket and came. And honestly, it was such a good week for me because it was such a good 24 hours that like, because like I got to reconnect with so many smart people and just remember like how phenomenal like the industry is and how smart the people are. And yeah, I’m just, I’m excited to like multiple days of that this year and kind of hear like what people are really doing, like down in the trenches as well. You know, other smart people that like a lot of them, I’m very, you know, lucky to consider friends. I’ve known for colleagues at least, right, that I’ve known for a long time. And to see like the people who are actually like really in the trenches, implementing this stuff, like what are they really thinking about? And then also have the chance to think a lot bigger about like where this stuff is going. Cause I live 12 to 18 months in the future, you know, I always do. And so like, I’m really excited to like both share how I’m thinking about it, but also see like, you know, the people who, who love being in the weeds, like right now and thinking about like right now, how they’re thinking about it, because that just makes everybody better, right? Having multiple perspectives.

Garrett: Oh my God. I can’t wait. And I’ll just like, just to frame it. I remember last year, like you, you came the night before and we’re all there watching Mike’s performing, Lily Ray’s performing, Busta Rhymes shows up, John walks in and everyone’s like, “Heyyyy!” It’s like we, you know, and everyone’s so friendly, like you and I had never met in person before, but it’s just instantly with all these people, you just feel like everybody’s open and sharing information and, and their ideas. And I – I’m, I’m psyched. If people want to find you online before New York, what’s the best way to get in touch?

John: Yeah. Um, LinkedIn, just search John Doherty on LinkedIn and, um, and Instagram is the other one. So John Doherty, it’s @DohertyJF on Instagram so i put out a lot of Reels and content and such on there try not to rant too much but you know there’s the occasional one but yeah those are the two um where to get in touch with me and um yeah if anyone you know has uh has ideas about you know the talk or kind of things they’d love to see me cover you know related to like you know um the the future of marketing teams in a world of AI like you know I’d love to hear it I want to I’ve very I’ve very much become a believer in the power of research and having people tell you what they want to hear and then telling them what they want to hear. So, um, or at least covering it, even if it’s not like the thing they want to hear the thing that they need to hear. So, um, if anyone wants to reach out, I’m, I’d be happy to chat. 

Garrett: There you go. And, and, and follow, uh, John on LinkedIn as well. Cause it’s like your, your, your content, what you put out there, you have a lot of strong takes and opinions that always kind of like cha–well, you challenge the way that I think about what’s kind of going on right now. And I think it’s, it’s insanely valuable. So thanks for coming on, man. Can’t wait to see you in New York in April. And for anybody who hasn’t already gotten your ticket, We’re talking April 27th to the 30th in New York City SEO Week. It’s going to be awesome. And you’ll see John there. Am I right? 

John: That’s right, man. Thanks, Garrett. I’m looking forward to being there. See you. 

Garrett: Garrett, signing off. Peace.