Garrett Sussman: SEO Week, Inside SEO Week, we are back. I’m, I’m psyched, I’m excited for this lovely person who’s joining me on this podcast today. I am joined by Jordan Leschinsky. Jordan first off – big moves big moves she’s now VP of Strategy at VaynerMedia; she’s all about AI visibility, she’s in it like trying to figure it out like the rest of us. Her career’s been all over the place. We’re talking like SEO, PR, social, editorial. She’s primed to navigate AI visibility. So leveraging a multidisciplinary background helps brands master the art of earning a presence in AI. She’s like nodding over there being like, yep, yep. Look at this bio he’s reading. Jordan, what’s up? How are you doing?

Jordan Leschinsky: I’m so good. I’m so good. I’m just listening to you do all the talking for me, which is great because I don’t know. 

Garrett: No, no, no. Spotlights on you. I’m shutting the hell up because I’m excited to talk about like you are in it. You’re in it with clients. You’re figuring this stuff out. AI search is so like overwhelming. There’s so much noise. So let’s dive in. Tell me for you, what’s top of mind in AI search? How are you thinking about it? 

Jordan: You know, it’s a lot of things. You know, I think that’s, that’s the thing we’re all up against is that there are so many things for us to tackle, to understand, to be aware of the, the top of mind is a very busy place right now. But I think based on, like you said, I’ve been in it with a lot of different people working on it with a lot of different brands and the, the theme that keeps coming out of it, which will be very familiar is this loss of control that we have, that we’d come from a world where we had so much control and we were just fine tuning all of the pieces to get better and better at SEO and marketing. And all of that’s kind of out of the window now where it’s a fresh start. Everything is new. That’s really exciting. That’s really terrifying. But it’s about helping to bring back some of that sense of control by understanding where can we have an impact quickly? What is more of a longer term goal, and all of the different pieces of the puzzle that you can play with to really have an impact on AI visibility and AI search. So it’s about identifying those really important pieces, especially for people who maybe aren’t SEO experts or maybe a bit intimidated by that, just understanding that there’s a lot you can be doing, which is terrifying and really wonderful. 

Garrett: I want to tap into it. So for you, like, why do you feel like it’s out of our control? Like, what do you feel like you’ve lost grasp on now going forward versus how it’s been? 

Jordan: I think how it was in the past was we all got to play in our lanes and we all got to understand our disciplines and we could move forward slowly. And we all have to be doing this together. That’s not new to know that breaking down silos and for PR and social and SEO and everything to be working in lockstep, you have much more of an impact. You know that you can only go so far in SEO if the PR team is doing something different, if the marketing team is doing something different, you’re limited. So that’s always been true. But we’ve always had the luxury of being able to kind of stick to our own lanes, our own disciplines to slowly make impact. But that change now, and I think that feeling of losing control is because these things now more than ever have to be working together to have an impact on AI visibility and search. and it’s about controlling a lot of different teams now and making sure that they’re working together, learning from each other, doing a bit of each other’s work and cross-disciplinary learning. And that is new, I think, from that being an ideal state to being a must-have state in order for you to be working in this new era. 

Garrett: It’s so interesting. I’m curious your perspective on the next six to 12 months of SEO because I know when you were a co-worker before and now at VaynerMedia, especially VaynerMedia with such a pulse on social and seeing everything like day to day, minute to minute, you know, second to second and seeing everything rapidly flow, like the whole like search behavior feels like that’s another thing we, you know, social behavior, we don’t have a grasp on as well because everything’s changing so quickly. How do you see all of that impacting SEO? Like what are you anticipating over the next year? 

Jordan: I think people need to accept right now that we’re not, it’s not actually an answer engine. It’s a conversation engine. Like that’s the difference. And I think that’s where that social perspective helps so much because that’s where all the conversations are happening live. You can see them, you can experience them, you can learn from them, understand them, figure out how to inform them. But I think that shift away from just trying to think of like, how do I show up as the answer or an answer? People are having conversations. You know, it may start off as a search or like I need a quick answer, but then tell me more about that. What about something else? But a friend mentioned this, what’s the comparison? It’s you understanding, comparing, making decisions. It’s a whole conversation ecosystem and like being visible in it is a small piece of it. But like how you’re showing up, when you’re showing up, why you’re showing, all of these different pieces of it are really important. So I think it’s shifting away from that being the answer versus having some control over how your brand is being represented by AI. And that means us all working more closely together because it all does impact it at the end of the day. 

Garrett: It’s a really cool concept of conversational engineering because it really does feel, that feels uncomfortable too of like you know to your point about informational – it used to feel so mechanical and obviously it’s so robotic but like now you have this robot machine AI deciding how to lead the conversation which feels uncanny and weird. So based on all that, you kind of touched on it but what are some of the problems, I guess, or questions that you’re most focused on in like what you’re doing at Vayner? 

Jordan: So I think, I think a big focus is on how and where social is impacting AI visibility. Um, that you mentioned how things are just changing day to day and having a look at that is helpful, but it’s also there, there are short-term games and there are long-term games. With SEO, we’ve always known that the closer you get to making sure your content is right for humans and people. User experience, actually being informative, actually being helpful. That’s always been the long-term play, right? SEO is going to catch up to you if you’ve been doing it that way. But there are always going to be quick wins and learnings on how to get there faster or just understanding how to work the system so that you’re accurately represented sooner rather than having to work through all of the problems as you lead up to it. But I think a big focus for us right now is how all the different pieces are actively working together and informing each other. And I know I sound like a broken record, but it really is for me just about all of the different disciplines, the social, the PR, the SEO and everything, understanding that they’re kind of all working on the same thing together. and learning from each other. Because the SEO world has always been fantastic at that. Sharing information, sharing wins, sharing fails. Like we’re all learning together and moving forward because of it. But I think we need to look outside of just that and understand how the social element, PR element, the marketing, the brand, the narrative element, like all of those, they’re starting to form the same thing. So we need to kind of expand our minds and disciplines and learnings. And we’ve got so many experts out there doing it right now. It’s just about like widening that community, bringing us all a bit closer together. 

Garrett: I think it’s really interesting when you’re talking short game, long game, because it comes up so often. And, you know, if someone’s talking about working with an enterprise brand versus working with like a new startup versus working with like, you know, like a Liquid Death consumer brand that has a very strong reputation, how are you thinking about risk in the context of AI search? Like, how are you thinking about what short-term risks to take that could have a negative long-term impact? Because I feel like to your point, like there’s so much we don’t know. And yet, you know, you can’t just wait for revenue falling in your lap. You have to do shit now. So how are you thinking about that? 

Jordan: For me, the risk is not in the doing. It’s in the not doing. Like your brand is being written right now by people, by AI, without your input. That’s the wonderful and terrible thing about it. Like it is finding information based on conversations that you’re not even part of, or you’re not even necessarily aware of happening, and it’s representing your brand. So the risk is to not do anything. The risk is to not try anything. I think there is very little you can do that is going to negatively impact you because things are developing so quickly. You could, the worst thing you could do is waste money winning quickly, and then it’s not going to mean anything in the long term, but you’re going to learn so much from it. And you’re going to help the entire industry move forward. So, you know, just waiting around for it to be the right time. That is the riskiest thing you can do because your reputation is being written right now. You don’t have to participate for that to happen. 

Garrett: And I can imagine those conversations have, you know, happening with your clients. I guess, how does your kind of core wheelhouse and how does all that show up in your thinking when you start to have these conversations where you’re trying to educate, but you have a risk adverse type of C-suite that wants to be in AI search, but also doesn’t want to do the things that might get them there? 

Jordan: Yeah. Well, I think because I have worn so many hats in my experience, been in SEO and PR and social and marketing and brand and, you know, editorial and all of those things. It means that I do provide a perspective that, you know, it’s how I’m looking at AI visibility is all the different pieces that can inform it, not just necessarily the SEO piece. So in some rooms, that sounds very expensive and scary because there’s so much work to be done. And in other rooms, that sounds really, really exciting, and like a huge opportunity because there are so many things you can do to impact AI visibility. So if you’ve never ventured into SEO, that’s okay because your PR and your social and your own website blog, it’s going to impact it. If you are strictly SEO, you know, you’re already ahead of the game. You can do so much there. Now it’s about expanding into doing the other pieces because we’ve always known how important it is. Like I’ve heard so many SEOs kind of rebrand backlink strategy into like digital PR and it’s going in the right direction. You absolutely need to be doing more of that, but we know it’s about more than just that link. The link is now not important at all. It’s about where you’re showing up, how you’re showing up, what words are being used to describe you. And that’s traditional PR, right? Is managing that conversation and that presence. So it’s all about that convergence. So, good news is there are so many things you can do. Bad news is there are so many things you need to do. 

Garrett: And I think too, it’s really tricky because I think there is a contingent of our industry where it’s fun to be geeky and nerdy and in the weeds and technical, but everything you’re speaking to requires such a social relationship aspect to it. Like whether it’s internal stakeholders or the social engineering that happens, that’s authentic. That’s not fricking, like, manufactured. And yet you still have to put in the effort and do that. Can you give a teaser? Cause it kind of plays into some of the stuff that you’re talking about at your SEO Week presentation, lay it on us. Give, give us like a little peek, a little taste of what you’re going to be talking about, what people will be seeing from you. 

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So, so it’s, it is all about that earned piece because you’ve got to control what you can control and your own proportion is a really important part of it. But earning that extra narrative, that extra information, that input that we know AI is turning to, to really paint that full picture is just so valuable because it has such a big impact in how you show up. Of course, your brand website is going to be saying great things about your brand. Of course, your own social is going to be saying wonderful things like, no duh. But it’s everything outside of that that really points that signal to what is what is true or even if it’s not true what is generally understood and accepted and that’s what’s going to show up in AI, so it’s all about that that earned architecture and ecosystem that you need to be building, the different ways that you can do it, the ways that you’ve already been doing it now, and you just need to understand that it is and how it is having an impact so that you can make sure that your teams, your work, or your solo entrepreneur, your spirit, is just focused on the right things to have an impact now and, of course, in the long term. 

Garrett: Dude, I cannot wait for your presentation. You’re going to be on the stage this year. Last year, we got to meet for the first time at the Algorhythms Afterparty, which was so much fun. I know you got to catch a few of the presentations. Tell me, this year, what are you most excited about for SEO Week? 

Jordan: Oh, there is so, so much. I think my favorite part is just that SEO Week brings all of these brilliant people together because that is the SEO way, right? It is us collaborating, sharing, you know, figuring it all out together. So just to have so many brilliant minds from so many different disciplines and backgrounds together, whether you’re on stage or in the crowd, like everyone is benefiting from it. I’m getting goosebumps talking about it. So, you know, if you see me there, if you want to chat or you agree with me or even better, you disagree with me, just would love to share and connect because I think that’s the part I’m most excited about. I’m going to learn so much from the stage and off it. Can’t wait. 

Garrett: There you go. And if you can’t wait to talk to Jordan, yeah, she’s actually on LinkedIn. We’ll have the link as well. So find her – anywhere else that people can get in touch with you?

Jordan: No, I think LinkedIn is my like social space of choice at the moment. I think that’s a great one. 

Garrett: I’m the same way as well. Well, I can’t wait. Thank you so much for joining me. This is going to be epic. So excited. 

Jordan: Thank you so much, Garrett. 

Garrett: Okay. If you haven’t already gotten your tickets, we’re talking April 27th to the 30th in New York City. Be there, four days nonstop. It’s going to be amazing. Jordan is on day four talking all about the future. And yeah, we’ll see you there. Peace.