Garrett Sussman: Inside SEO Week. We are back. Jori Ford is here and she is the blank of blank at the blank at the blank – I can’t even say…there’s something coming. I stalk her LinkedIn, find out what she’s got next, because there’s some things happening that I know that you don’t know. Check her out. Jori, you were at SEO Week last year. It was incredible. Let’s dive right into this AI search. What’s top of mind for you? 

Jori Ford: I would say there’s a new gap, right? There’s visibility, which we were all about, visibility related to clicks and traffic, and what’s real, right? What’s the truth about what’s going on? And that’s why there’s so many new tools out, you know, saying, this is how you show up, but is it real? Do you know? AI visibility scores, are they real? Can they be influenced? How do you know whether they’re factual or not? And I think that that can cause some confusion for a lot of teams because everybody’s on the AI bandwagon, but if you’re on a bandwagon and you don’t know the direction that it’s heading, are you going in the right place? So I think for me right now, it’s how are we taking advantage of understanding directionality versus, like, truth? And what do we do day to day to create that influence and it be measurable? 

Garrett: Jori, it’s so important and it’s messing with my brain too because data is something we were – for the last few decades, we’ve been these performance marketers and we want this precision in our information and we want to know, we want attribution and we want to be able to make decisions. But it is so messy and it is so gray and it is so uncomfortable. And I feel like that’s the state of SEO right now and going forward. What do you think the next six months to 12 months look like in our industry? 

Jori: Honestly, I think it’s going to be about credibility and validity. Teams that win aren’t the ones who react the fastest. They’re the ones who measure precision, right? That’s what we’ve always thought. And that’s why I think we used to be click chasers. And now it’s like, well, what am I going to chase? And for me, though, I said this last year, and I’m going to say it again, but I’m going to double down on it. Last year, I said hybrid engine optimization was going to be the future. I think directionally, we’re right there, right? Like, there’s not a choice of do I or don’t I, and it’s not two engines. It’s one, right? Google’s compounding it and making sure of that. The landscape has changed and we have to either have a reality moment and realize that without using our logs, without control tests, without repeatable checks, you’re just going to get dragged down in algorithmic mood swings, right? Is AI Overviews going to be on the top today? Maybe. Is it going to be down at the bottom or in the middle? We don’t know. Are we going to show a Knowledge Graph anymore? And trying to leverage only tools to do this isn’t going to work. It’s not. We’re going to have to really dig into what we knew, but also what we’re starting to learn and know. And I’ve said that testing is really important, but now testing into that hybrid model and where you sit, because there’s no time to waste, right? We don’t have time. Remember when we had to choose between Yahoo, Bing, or Google? We had to choose a thing. There’s no more choice. We’ve been told, it’s search everywhere. So we have to choose the most critical things that we’re going to do that does it for everything and both. 

Garrett: I loved your presentation last year about hybrid optimization. I got to ask, and I feel like I know the answer, but I want your hot take on on record, Markdown Files. It’s been one of the conversations in our industry right now. Irresponsible, really like, you know, kind of future proofing. What are you telling people when they ask about Markdown files, the future of hybrid optimization, or is that a really bad disservice to your brand and your business? 

Jori: I don’t tell them either. I tell them to test it because honestly, it’s, it’s where it’s looking at you and your industry. I think in some areas, it’s already been exposed that Markdown is working for some people. And if it’s working for you, fake it till you make it, right? Because we know it’s going to change. It’s literally been intrinsic to what we’ve all done is we test into it; if it’s working, we keep doing it until it stops working. And I think that SEOs have gotten a bad name for doing that. But CROs have done it. Test and Learn’s done it. Everybody else has done this. Product does it. So why wouldn’t we be the first movers on doing that when it comes to engines? And so if it’s working for you, keep testing into it. 

But I would say democratize that data. Dan Petrovich does this really well. Mike, your teams, everybody’s doing it really well. But nobody’s looking at it by vertical. Nobody’s looking at it specific to, you know, how we show up. Like local AI Overviews doesn’t exist on mobile devices for Local that are high intent searches. Right. So who cares about Markdown Files if you’re, you know, Joe’s Auto Shop? That doesn’t matter to you. But healthcare, when people are trying to do discovery and understand things, Markdown Files are working. For blog posts that are very, like, discovery oriented, it’s working. So why wouldn’t you do that? 

Lean into what’s working for you and when it’s working for you, but realize that if you’re not doing regularly scheduled checks and views, what could be working yesterday could demolish you tomorrow because there’s mature systems like Google who are trying to share, they’re trying to communicate. There’s accelerated systems like Anthropic who are trying to be very transparent. And then you’ve got, you know, our wild, wild westers out there with ChatGPT and Perplexity. They’re just lassoing it up and throwing out whatever, whatever. So you’ve got to kind of move with that and decide if that’s where you’re trying to be, then you’ve got to be ready to, you know, ebb and flow. But if you’re going for consistency, Google’s probably pretty solid and they stick with what they’re doing, for the most part. So if it’s not working for you right now with the Googs, probably should stop it immediately. 

Garrett: I love it. And it’s funny because to your point about, you know, the probabilistic nature of this, everything’s shifting with AI Overviews, hyper-personalization. It’s almost like you’re talking the language of hyper-personalization for business. Like the other side of the coin, you have to be, know your business and experiment for your business. What are some of the problems or the questions that you’re most focused on in your work right now? 

Jori: So AI crawlers, because everybody knows I love crawling. I hate AI crawlers. Because here’s my thing. What do AI crawlers actually fetch on real sites and how deep are they going? I’ve been running different kinds of tests. And the data is inconsistent from crawler to crawler. But crawler within crawler for the exact same queries. So it’s like, it’s painful to not be able to dig into that and be like, I can figure this out, right? Which pages are actually getting referenced with AI answers? I think different people have shown and demonstrated that the compressed answer in certain formats show up in the AI Overviews. But again, not for every industry, not for every search type. And so I think we have to dig into what that means. 

And then what systems are people using? Because, like, there’s all these tools, right? Old school SEOs, you can ask them, and like 98% are going to be like Screaming Frog’s within my system set, right? I use this for my keyword research and you know what’s going to come up. There’s not really, like, a search stack for AI that’s like a constant. Right now, there’s new tools popping up every five minutes, new content tools that are like ingesting with AI. So I think my questions and problems are mostly focused on how do I build a stack that’s going to scale, that is strong enough to withstand time, that’s focused on the problems that are apparent within the businesses that I’m working within, not ingesting all the noise, because I think it’s really about signals and noise. And today, my main focus, get rid of noise. Focus on the signal, get rid of the noise. 

Garrett: I love it. And so hard. We’ve been dealing with three, more than three, but three years of noise, especially since ChatGPT came out late 2022. It’s just been relentless crap thrown at us. And I love the way that you’re framing it. It is really tricky. I remember around that time, too, when you talk to a business, say, oh, what’s your five-year plan? Good luck with any five-year plan that’s not going to be disrupted. I’m excited about what you’re talking about at SEO Week. Can you give us a little itty-bitty teaser of what people can expect to see? 

Jori: Part of it is separating the noise from the signal. I have done some tests. I have figured out some things. You know I’m big on tangible practicality. So understanding what’s changing on the surface, but taking a lens and being able to actually prioritize your list of to-dos. Because I think we were in the age of checklists and audits. And I think we all need to move to an age of refinement related to AI so that there’s automation, execution, but in a nuanced kind of way. So I’m going to be talking about some of that. And then, you know, I may or may not mention some of the noise and what kinds of tools, visibility tools can cause that, that noise and how we can be more responsible in our use there, you know, drink responsibly. 

Garrett: There you go. Well, I mean, we’re all navigating. Everyone’s trying to, to, to make their money and everyone’s got different kinds of perspectives. I can’t wait to see the direction you point us in. And okay, one moment, take me back. Last year, you were at SEO week. There were so many moments that were memorable for you. What really resonated the most in New York last April? 

Jori: So there was a lot going on. I would probably say SEO Week is the first time you go to Epcot or Disney World for SEOs. But I would say it’s where the smartest builders and strategic minds of today and tomorrow in AI and search are. Right? Because the conversations went past the stage. And in a lot of places, it’s the stage and then people are out. It’s where you learn to measure ship and do great things. because when you went out to the network room, people were actually talking about hands-on what’s happening at their jobs, and nobody was shocked or scared of it. Everybody was having discussions about it. I feel like if you were ever willing to pay a bunch of money for consulting, pay the bunch of money to go to SEO Week and then go do it in the network hall. Because the top consultants that you’re ever going to get are all in one room, and they’re all excited about what’s going on, so they’re all talking about it to everybody. So, I mean, you can’t deny that it’s where the space between AI search and the future lives. Like, it’s at SEO Week and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. I’m humbled and honored to be back again because they set the bar. 

Garrett: Dude, I can’t wait to see. I’ll never forget. It was after one of the events. And we’re also geeks, to your point. We enjoy talking about it. Judge us, if you will. I’m talking to you, Ruth Burr Reedy, Greg Gifford. We’re walking down the street in New York at night just talking about Local, talking about bots. It was special. And we’re going to do it again. 

So if you haven’t already gotten your tickets, April 27th to the 30th will be in New York City again. Jori will be there with bells on it. Maybe you’ll even find out what she’s doing. Thank you so much for joining me, Jori. This is awesome. 

Jori: Thank you so much, Garrett. 

Garrett: There you go. Garrett Sussman, SEO Week. See you there. Signing off. Peace.